About this conversation

In this conversation, Steve McIntosh engages from a firmly integral philosophy standpoint, and the exchange is in many ways a productive friction with the series framing itself. McIntosh takes issue with the “third attractor” terminology, arguing that Schmachtenberger’s framing bypasses one of the central insights of integral thought: the dialectical structure of cultural evolution through thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. His core claim is that any vision of what comes next must reckon seriously with progressive postmodernism as its own distinct stage, not simply leap from modernity to some better future. From there, the conversation unfolds across the political implications of developmental philosophy, the limits of building movements versus writing books, the work of the Institute for Developmental Philosophy, and the deep tensions in approaching cultural evolution from a position that insists on transcending and including rather than rejecting. McIntosh is skeptical of AI as an existential threat while remaining clear-eyed about its real risks, and equally skeptical of economic proposals that would dismantle rather than build on modernity. Daniela holds the space with genuine curiosity, noting how the 30 conversations have humbled her rather than narrowed her views, and the exchange ends on a note of mutual respect between two people who clearly share more ground than their opening disagreement might suggest.